I'd have to agree.

An invention "does something" moreso than just "is something".

The invention is what it does... not what it is.

By your reasoning, Silvanus, The early Wheel was just a new way of shaping and using a rock.

But, I like spying in on this discussion. I'll go hide again now.

I'm not denying that the car is an invention, I'm just saying that their were hundreds of inventions before it that led to it. Most of which happened decades, even centuries before. Most invention nowadays is simply finding new ways to put together old inventions. Which, to be honest, doesn't require quite as much prowess.

The guy who designed the gear made something new, when he made it he knew that it would turn another such thing. Does it take as much genius to see how the gear would go well in a transmission? No.

After all, anyone can say after seeing a straw, "I can use this to drink my drink easier without spilling!" But it takes true genius to think, "I keep spilling when i drink, but if I make a hollow tube to stick in my drink and suck it through, I won't spill as much."

It seems like your criterion for an ingenious invention is one that doesn't make use of any previous inventions. But why shouldn't we use the tools we have to make the job easier?

This is a really weird discussion... my head hurts.

WishingStar wrote:

It seems like your criterion for an ingenious invention is one that doesn't make use of any previous inventions. But why shouldn't we use the tools we have to make the job easier?

We should, otherwise what would they be for? I'm just disagreeing with the idea that humans are smarter or more cunning now than our ancestors were.

FIFTHWIND wrote:

This is a really weird discussion... my head hurts.

:p

So in your eyes, in order for human beings to be 'smarter' we have to disregard all the developments (and the knowledge gained from them) ever made in the past? That rather seems like the opposite to me.

And anyway, every 'invention' since the very first human being made something have all been an extension of that first discovery. One discovery leads to better knowledge, thus better understanding to create other things. The 'old inventions' that you're talking about were only possible because of knowledge about the nature of things that came about before them, and so on and so on, right back to cavemen. It's called progress.

Silvanus wrote:

We should, otherwise what would they be for? I'm just disagreeing with the idea that humans are smarter or more cunning now than our ancestors were.

Read before replying.

All I'm saying is that we have not gotten smarter or more cunning, and that the progress of making "new" inventions has slowed and not sped up.

A car is one invention, made up of hundreds of previously thought up inventions that came decades, centuries before. A toaster is the same, a tv is the same. When you quantify the numbers, the previous outnumber the current. That's it. I'm not implying we're stupider now, just that we're not smarter.

Though some original ingenuity would be nice at the moment with the ridiculous gas prices and a need for alternative fuels that actually work. As well as some way to save us from overpopulation, which will happen sometime in the next 50 years.

"All I'm saying is that we have not gotten smarter or more cunning, and that the progress of making "new" inventions has slowed and not sped up."

That's not all you're saying at all ¬_¬ You're saying that the only kind of invention that can be called a 'new' invention is one which comes about as a result of complete chance, such as say penicillin, or through trial and error (as any other kind of 'invention' method will be influenced by past inventions in some way). And that's not invention, that's discovery.

A caveman accidently bashes two rocks together and a spark is produced. He has found a way to make fire. That's not cunning. What's cunning is how these disoveries can be pushed and expanded to be applied to solve problems in new, previously unimagined ways, which is what we've been seeing throughout the last century with the technological industry explosion.

Actually, people are getting smarter, since education is getting better. I mean, stuff like astrophysics and the inner workings of atoms are pretty common knowledge, and 100 years ago, people had no idea about any of these things.

RoberII wrote:

Actually, people are getting smarter, since education is getting better. I mean, stuff like astrophysics and the inner workings of atoms are pretty common knowledge, and 100 years ago, people had no idea about any of these things.

You're confusing knowledgable and smart. People know a lot more now, but that doesn't make them any smarter.

Mister_Bubbles wrote:

"All I'm saying is that we have not gotten smarter or more cunning, and that the progress of making "new" inventions has slowed and not sped up." That's not all you're saying at all ¬_¬ You're saying that the only kind of invention that can be called a 'new' invention is one which comes about as a result of complete chance, such as say penicillin, or through trial and error (as any other kind of 'invention' method will be influenced by past inventions in some way). And that's not invention, that's discovery. A caveman accidently bashes two rocks together and a spark is produced. He has found a way to make fire. That's not cunning. What's cunning is how these disoveries can be pushed and expanded to be applied to solve problems in new, previously unimagined ways, which is what we've been seeing throughout the last century with the technological industry explosion.

That's because you're doing the english major's favorite thing in the world. "Lets try to guess what he was implying instead of listening to what he was actually saying!"

Silvanus wrote:

Mister_Bubbles wrote: "All I'm saying is that we have not gotten smarter or more cunning, and that the progress of making "new" inventions has slowed and not sped up." That's not all you're saying at all ¬_¬ You're saying that the only kind of invention that can be called a 'new' invention is one which comes about as a result of complete chance, such as say penicillin, or through trial and error (as any other kind of 'invention' method will be influenced by past inventions in some way). And that's not invention, that's discovery. A caveman accidently bashes two rocks together and a spark is produced. He has found a way to make fire. That's not cunning. What's cunning is how these disoveries can be pushed and expanded to be applied to solve problems in new, previously unimagined ways, which is what we've been seeing throughout the last century with the technological industry explosion. That's because you're doing the english major's favorite thing in the world. "Lets try to guess what he was implying instead of listening to what he was actually saying!"

If you don't want that to happen, you should probably make your points more easily deductible from what you are saying. And don't make personal attacks. You have made no examples as to what you -would- consider proper inventions, or why you believe that the rate of human invention is slowing down.

Also, people are a lot smarter as well, in that we teach logic in schools, as opposed to a magical way of thinking. School is designed to teach the ability of analysis, and the ability to analyse correctly is pretty much what defines 'smart', at least in the context of the ability to do science.

SMARTS are going down.... KNOWLEDGE is going up... and they're two different things.

The modern marvel of having virtually ALL knowledge at one's fingertips has produced a society that for the most part has more knowledge than any other in history. However, because we no longer have to "work' for that information, the average reasoning and processing skills must have reduced (I would imagine)

Take calculators for example. Advanced mathematical ability has been severely reduced in society once we had a Tool that could do these things for us. Likewise, people find themselves in fewer and fewer situations where reasoning, logic and complex thought processes are needed. Heck, even gamers often look online for "walk-throughs" of their favorite games rather than work out the solutions themselves. The point is that only ten years ago, that information was not readily available and using your own mental might was paramount to completing a task. Not anymore. If you don't know something, there's no need to figure it out... just acquire the info online.

It's like having a cheat sheet during the test... having access to the answers is not the same as KNOWING the answers. In today's world, we all have access to lots of information... but it doesn't mean that we know much.

So, with a complete lack of any data to back up the claim, I'd have to agree with Silvanus that "smarts" are going down, even though "Knowledge" (or the ability to acquire knowledge) is going up.

Don't believe me? Without looking it up, what is the Kilogram to Carat conversion formula? How about 47 in binary? Hexadecimal? Yeah... didn't think so... without the internet, what would you do? Give up? Just say, oh-well?

BTW, converting decimal to binary and hex in our heads is something us "old-timers" had to learn... Smarts are definitely going down... the efficiency and ease of solving these problems is what has gone up.

But that also has to do with the fact that 'old timers' as you call them were taught techniques to do that math in their heads, and those techniques are no longer taught, since calculators are readily available. So in a way, that, too, is a function of knowledge.

You got me there

Still, there are things that require brain power that we are losing.

Such as..?

I can't remember how to calculate the square root of a four digit number. My children have NEVER known how.

Pythagoras, for example, used FAR more brain power than a kid today with a calculator. It doesn't matter that even Pythagoras would have loved to have had one.

Easy access to knowledge and information is a wonderful thing... but it's also a crutch that will slowly weaken the mental muscles.

FIFTHWIND wrote:

How about 47 in binary?

101111?

You win a squishy toy with a bell inside.

Knowledge has become mass produced and easily accessible. This isn't harming us as much as greatly speeding up the processes of innovation. The instantaneous sharing of knowledge to the commoner means what? They can go to Google and look up the binary number for 47 and rattle it off in a minute, making them appear smarter. It may or may not actually make them smarter, but the instantaneous sharing of knowledge made it possible.

However, instantaneous sharing of knowledge in the hands of a scientist opens worlds of new possibilities. If CERN smashes and atom in France, everybody in the world can begin analyzing and utilizing the data, which could lead to...i dont know...TIME TRAVEL or something awesome (Hypothetical outcome). Point being: When all the scientists in the world can think as one super scientist, then we can all start thinking with portals.

The CATCH! (yes, there is always a catch).
If the good scientists at CERN smash an atom in France and come up with something significant, they would most likely be inclined to keep that information to themselves so that they can capitalize off of TIME TRAVEL, which would be good money.

Step right up, for only a nickle, YOU can go back in time and assassinate (insert oppressive dictator here)!!!

Still, in an optimal scenario, information is shared for the greater good of smartness in our world.

Smarts: Point!

Smarts? or the ability to find an answer? I cannot give you the point.

Take away that web of information and see who still has any 'Smarts".

For example: A mathematician can use HIS knowledge of mathematics to solve a NEW kind of problem. I can only do it by waiting for a NEW kind of calculator that has that NEW button on it.

The principle of Occam's razor applies here. All things being equal, Pythagoras will kick your ass at math.

***There was an old science fiction story (don't remember the name or author) that told a story about how everyone knew everything through the sharing of knowledge, but there was NO ONE out there learning NEW things. So society stagnated in its acquired knowledge.

Could happen... (well, not really... but the principle is understandable)

Stranded on a desert island with no modern access to your so-called-"knowledge", who is going to stand a better chance of building shelter and feeding themselves? You or a Caveman? Seriously, think about it.

FIFTHWIND wrote:

I can't remember how to calculate the square root of a four digit number. My children have NEVER known how. Pythagoras, for example, used FAR more brain power than a kid today with a calculator. It doesn't matter that even Pythagoras would have loved to have had one. Easy access to knowledge and information is a wonderful thing... but it's also a crutch that will slowly weaken the mental muscles.

Long division and pythag are still taught in school if you do the relevant subjects (at least in Australia). a^2 + b^2 = c^2

Hell, I've even learnt how to differentiate by first principles despite there being an easy and fast shortcut for it.

Again, not sure if this is Australia specific, but our Maths subjects have calculator-free exams. You actually have to know your stuff to pass, you can't just rely on technology.

FIFTHWIND wrote:

The principle of Occam's razor applies here. All things being equal, Pythagoras will kick your ass at math.

"The simplest solution is usually the right one"? (no i didn't look that up.) Don't see how that's relevant

Okay... let's try it this way... and I DARE anyone to find a hole in this logic.

Knowing is NOT equal to understanding...

I KNOW what a black hole is... given an afternoon on google, I could tell you all kinds of neat things about them. BUT...

If you need me to save the world from one, I don't have that kind of understanding, you'll need to go find Michio Kaku or some other physicist that UNDERSTANDS such things to have any hope at all.

Having access to knowledge really isn't the same as knowing something. But 10 years from now, once you leave academia... tell me that you still remember that stuff and I'll be impressed. You'll be a calculator user by then.

Have at it.

BTW @ conundrum: by NOT using technology in your mathematics skills, you have proved my point, and you HAVE more smarts than someone who googles the answers.
*******************************************

Saying that having access to knowledge automatically makes you "smarter"

Is like saying that ...

Having access to a weight set automatically makes you stronger...

Or that having access to women means that I'll get lucky tonight...

BS

I could ask you and someone without an internet connection what the top 100 songs of 1992 were. Neither of you will KNOW. How are you smarter than the other guy? Just because you can find out, doesn't make you smarter, it just makes you more resourceful or fortunate.

My point was that people ARE still learning the stuff. Maybe not everyone is, but not everyone learnt it back before calculators either. I'd say that the number of people who KNOW and UNDERSTAND advanced maths is higher now than ever. But again, no figures to back that up

Yeah... me either... figures are for sissies

Here's another funny example:

I have about nine friends whose numbers are in my cell phones address book.

i used to remember people's phone numbers... but I couldn't tell you ANY of them anymore. I just push the "Call Bob" button. What if I lost that phone and needed to call someone? I'D BE SCREWED.

In this case, "Ease of access" has COMPLETELY REPLACED knowledge.

justsomerandomweirdgirl15 wrote:

this should not be a first post, well forget it is, but i have a stupid question, and i don't care, well i would like you to reply, but you really don't have to, but i'll see if those who do are trustful on here anyways. anyways... Do you believe that everything happens for a reason? And not just the big things, but the little things too. Like you were suppose to be at one place at one specific time because someone else was suppose to be there? OR! Do you think that what happens, just happens, and then you just die, like life suks, and then you just fall over in a big hole or get burned to little ashes, aka you die?

This thread is almost hilariously off topic. xD

Yup... the good ole days are back in swing.

We hijack EVERYTHING!!!

Who's been writing lately? Anyone?

Almost hilariously?