Okay. This topic is to help give ideas on how one should develop magic and technology in their writings or RP threads.

INTRODUCTION
"Slow down. What about the zombies?"

"Oh, I call those "clone slugs" — grew those years ago from nail clippings, I think. Anyway, after the slugs have been activated, that machine...

"Purgatory."

"Whatever. That computer feeds all their nocturnally recorded memory synapses."

"Their memories, hopes, and dreams. Their immortal souls!"

"You're killing me with that crap; just let me finish. That computer feeds synaptic data to their incubation beds; that information is supplemented with basic knowledge that my dad recorded for me so I didn't have to go to school; and that is why I didn't lose my virginity until I was 24."

"That is awful!"

"Well, you didn't see her. It was horrific."

-Dr. Orpheus and Dr. Venture from [adult swim]'s The Venture Brothers regarding magic and technology

In my experience as a fiction writer, especially fantasy, there are two main 'forces' in the world other than good and evil, order and chaos, or whatever. This is the natural and unnatural. Though, one could argue magic is not natural, I'll get into that.

In all, this can quickly be interpreted as magic and technology.

THE BIG DIFFERENCES

Like I stated in the introduction, it's a question of the natural and the unnatural, but even this is debatable. And the banter between Orpheus and Venture above illustrates the point beautifully. Orpheus is the necromancer. He follows the magical route and even uses it for his tasks, whereas Venture is the scientist, and takes the route of using technology and science to go about his tasks.

Like stated, magic is a more 'natural' form as it is, in my experience, not as explained or harder to understand. Sometimes even magic 'just happens' and can't be explained anyway. It just is, and trying to explain its purpose, origins and so forth at length, though useful in philosophy and like, is fruitless.

Science, as we know, is more trying to explain everything. There are countless books that provide theories and laws on how the world works. We, as humans, seem to have the want and need to classify everything and discover what happened, though, some people can't accept that we may never know everything. Science too, through technology, is the 'unnatural' aspect, in that it is something we as a species create. Even the simplest things, that I know some people wouldn't think of technology IS technology.

Take simple stone tools for example, and this is where it gets a little philosophical, but I'll try and stay away from that part, but anyways. In the beginning, these things were just rocks that people bashed against things to do what they wanted. However, we learned, through trial and error how to utilize the rock in other ways. This included attaching it to a stick and using it as a club. Voila! Technology!

And this is where you could blur the line even further, especially in 'the dawn of time' era where even simple technology could be interpreted as magic.

So, the differences can be seen that the magic is the natural order of things, and technology is your humans, orcs, elves, whatever, using the natural things and making their technology.

MAGIC
So! Let's get our hands dirty with the natural part of this argument. Magic. You can call it whatever you want, and you don't have to include it in your setting even.

If you have to explain it in a scientific manner, then you should do it in such a way that makes sense. For example, it's a field around the earth, much like the magnetic field or the atmosphere. Maybe it comes from something in the soil? Possibly it's genetic? (Star Wars can be argued that 'The Force' is a form of magic, where only certain people can use it).

Once you determine how it comes about (if you want) you can go further into it, creating 'schools' which, I know, following the cliche, can be elemental powers. The four basic ones are:

-Earth
-Fire
-Wind
-Water

Though, you can do other things with it if you want, possibly adding other elements or mixing them. If you even wanted though, you could create a new element, something like 'ether'.

Ether is an interesting concept in the classical world, and even today in literature. It's the 'everythingy-thingy' element, that is everything and everyone. It can take different shapes and so forth.

Anyways, when you have a form of magic, determine how it can be utilized, if it even can be utilized! Or controlled for that matter.

So, try by figuring out how magic came about, then what it does, then how to use it or how it effects the world.

TECHNOLOGY
Now, the other end of the spectrum. The man-made things. This part is more directed at the research aspect, and there are numerous ways to go about it.

What I have found to be most effective is to go do your homework! Look at your setting. If you had to put into a time frame in our world, when would it be? Then use this 'base' in time as a 'jumping off point' and go to town.

However, a fun part with technology, is it's always changing and developing, whereas magic is kinda stagnant, being natural. True, it can evolve and change, but it is more natural, therefore, I'd suggest taking a more natural processes with it.

A prime example of this is something I did for Kuro a while back, which was the birth of firearms. She has a faction in her writing that had no magical ability whatsoever. Technology was the answer for them, to match the power of other factions sorcerers. In order to explain how their guns came about, I did some serious research into the first firearms and cannons and so forth. Though it was 'accelerated' for the setting, as it was out of necessity, you can do that.

So, for technology, research is a good place to start.

COMBINING THE TWO

You can go about this a number of ways. There is no escaping either of them. You can have a world without magic, but you cannot have a world without technology. However, the loophole can be that your magic IS technology.

I don't know how many people here are familiar with the Anime Fullmetal Alchemist, nor do I mean to spoil it, but it deals with two worlds: one that you could argue went the magical route of alchemy, and another which went the scientific route.

And so, we cycle back to the Orpheus/Venture argument. Which is better? The truth is, neither. They can both do the same things, just different means. However, you can combine them together and have some pretty amazing things!

In my writing, I have done this extensively. There are hybrid engines that function off of gas and magical energies. Magic can be an incredibly clean and renewable energy source, that is regulated and refined through technology. I've even developed a form of magic that has been influenced by science and technology.

CONCLUSION

Again, I go back to [adult swim] and The Venture Bros. with Orpheus and Venture, referencing an episode where they try to outdo each other with a 'shrinking contest'. Orpheus starts with his majiks and works along them, while Venture works with his machines and uses his science to solve the problem. In the end though, they both concede. Though, the story gives a different reason, I interpret it as the writers showing something about magic and technology, that I've said time and time again through this. Different means to the same end.

Now, it's your turn. Develop some magic and technology for your writing or RP! If you need help, this is what the thread is for. Bouncing ideas back and forth.

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**Edited for a broken bold bracket. -- FW

I'm a big fan of the phrase "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", but believe we're already at that point.

For instance, my two "aliens" are actually artificial beings who are somewhere between organic and machine (biomechanoid), use powers and are fueled by, well, magic crystals. Further blurring the line, their powers seem to trigger 'magic' (in the traditional sense) in humans. Neither of them understands nor can explain how any of it works, but they counter by asking how many of the human characters can explain how a microwave or an iPod works, or how human embryogenesis happens.

The fact of the matter is that for 99.99% of people, most or all of modern technology is, essentially, 'magic'. It works because you perform the magic motions (push this button, that button, then enter the time), and you have idea why.

So while it seems tempting to view them as divergent paths, remember that from the dumb-as-dirt end-user POV, there's really no difference between the magic ball of thread that guided Theseus through the minotaur's maze and the GPS that guided me to a show last weekend.

Mokele

Havoc... how many times have you gone and done this now?

Long, detailed and thorough posts with rarely a misspelled word or an incomplete thought. Your attention to the finer points is stunning and your dedication to your interests is inspiring.

All I can say is: Keep up the good work, and once FIFTHWIND is published, I'm hiring you to head up the team to develop the official FW RPG computer game.

I can think of no one I'd trust more for that task.

**Now don't get excited... we all know I'll never do well enough to warrant a game... but at least we can dream. The point is that YOU KICK ASS!!

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"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

So, taking your definition of magic as literally as possible (and playing devil's advocate in the process), Mokele, there is no such thing as magic. You could also use magic in another form of just saying words.

For example, you ask someone across the room to stand up and they do so. You've just performed magic! Though, at the same time, you could argue you just asked the person to stand up, and it was their choice to do so.

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The fact of the matter is that for 99.99% of people, most or all of modern technology is, essentially, 'magic'. It works because you perform the magic motions (push this button, that button, then enter the time), and you have idea why.

True, but with research and science, you can explain it. Take weather for example. It is one of those things, that just happens, but you can explain and research why and how it happens. Magic has always been more enigmatic and unexplainable. When it boils down to the literal, pushing a button that will send an email is just a series of electrical impulses traveling through wires, that are transmitted through the creation of phone lines called the internet. Whereas a magical method of communication would lack that explanation other then the mere fact one willed a message to another.

The only problem with that argument is regarding whether or not psychic abilities could be considered a form of magic (as one could use scientific biology to come to some sort of conclusion on biological impulses and so forth), which opens up a whole other barrel of monkeys, that I might get into later.

The key to a good magic/tech system is to give them limits in the writing. In my own writing, there are two major 'hybrid' factions: The Breed and The Alvanites, and here's an example. Both sides has a sort of 'berserker' genome, which is so dangerous, the hybrid needs to be restrained somehow to function in society.

The Breed's genome is known as a hellhound. They are incredibly violent and homicidal creatures in combat, yet in order for them to function in society, they must be medicated like mental patients.

Though in the setting, Breed medicine is far more advanced then what we have currently, the treatment you could say is pretty much the same today.

The Alvanite's genome is known as an Ichneumon. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichneumon) Like the hellhound, they are very violent and fearsome creatures, but in order for them to function, the Alvanites take another method, in meditation and using magical techniques.

Despite this, both methods have problems: For the Breed, the medication can only work if it is continued to be taken, otherwise the hellhound would degenerate into a wild beast, though useful during battle, isn't in functioning society. Then there's the biological issue, of how the body will eventually build immunity to the drugs, meaning they are dependent on them.

For the Alvanites, the methods they use are calmer and don't effect the body, but no matter the level of treatment, violent outbursts can still happen. Magic techniques, though the body cannot build an immunity to them, have limited effectiveness.

The ultimate problem with both methods though, is they are not permanent fixes. Treatment must continue for their lives if they are to function in society.

So, there is an example of how they are different paths, but to the same end. Ultimately though, it's just personal opinion on what is magic and what isn't.

And thank you for the compliment Fiffy. Let's hope the book is a great success!

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So, taking your definition of magic as literally as possible (and playing devil's advocate in the process), Mokele, there is no such thing as magic. You could also use magic in another form of just saying words.

Pretty much. How different is magic, really, from alchemy? In both cases, shit happens without a clear understanding of the underlying mechanisms, but useful techniques have been found through trial and error. (Note I'm talking about real alchemy, which was simply trying to understand chemical reactions, rather than the fictional, magic versions.)

Why should a character with magic be any different from one which, say, manipulates radiation? In a medieval setting, both would be "magic". What's to stop someone from viewing magic as just another set of physical forces like gravity and magnetism?

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True, but with research and science, you can explain it.

And isn't this true of magic? There are plenty of magic systems with detailed explanations, at least as detailed as science was 200 years ago. If magic is explained, does magic missle or scrying become science?

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The key to a good magic/tech system is to give them limits in the writing.

Definitely agreed, limitation is essential.


My main point is simply that the two aren't a dichotomy. To refer back to my alien characters, to us they're magic - golem-like creations with magical powers beyond explanation, fueled by crystals. To the creatures who created them, they're technology, extremely advanced bio-engineered weapons utilizing a new power source. Who is right?

Don't just think Sci-fi. Imagine a "wizard" who's powers are actually the ability to generate or manipulate radiation. Read Marvel's 1602, about the X-men and other mutants being born in the time of the Spanish Inquisition. To split magic and technology is purely artificial, and in some sense, cliche.

Mokele

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My main point is simply that the two aren't a dichotomy.

I know this isn't much of a reply, but it's kinda late and I'm gettin' tired, but thought I'd just throw this out here too to get the discussion going (thank you, Mokele for debating the merits of this with me too! )

But, if this is indeed the case, then why does it still exist? Why haven't we gotten rid of it, when clearly this has happened as far back as Classical Greece. (Another of your examples, Mokele).

So, the big question for this thread that I want other people to get discussing too: Why do we have these two systems, when you could consider them one and the same?

I'll be making another of these workshop posts soon, prolly tomorrow on another topic involved in worldbuilding and RP Crafting.

Well, I'd argue the difference is simple: Magic is fictional, technology is real, or at least plausible by the laws of the real world. I could see 2001 (sans the date), Aliens, or Star Trek eventually coming to pass. Seeing Lord of The Rings come to pass would require a completely different world, with different laws and where magic exists.

You could argue otherwise, but the very language of fantasy proves my point. Look at taglines: "It is a world of magic" (implying ours is not); "What if magic returned?" (implying that it's currently absent), a spell/rite is "not of this world" (again implying this world lacks magic), etc.

It's kind of like "What makes something an alien / monster?" The real, simple rule is that it's something that doesn't / couldn't exist on Earth as we know it. T. rex or the raptors of Jurassic Park are neither, as they actually did exist. Godzilla or the giant ants of THEM! are monsters, as they are not 'creatures of this world', past or present. The Vulcans aren't seen as truly alien due to their great similarity to humans, while the creatures of Alien are, well, totally alien, due to their lack of familiarity. In either case (alien/monster), they are "not of this world".

Mokele

"Any sufficiently debased magic is indistinguishable from science"

I will argue this then:

Magic follows psychological processes, IE, magic depends largely on the soul of the spectator and the magician. And/or the author

Or put in another way: Magic follows the laws that dreams do, and those laws do not neccesarily follow cause / effect. There are things that you cannot do with science, even a sufficiently advanced science, but there is nothing you cannot do with magic. You could even argue that this is a requirement for something to be considered magic - that it breaks the laws of science.

Furthermore, there is a different between magic and perceived magic.